Life Style Answer: Here is a rule. Be far away, Upwind, have direct clean water access. The upwind thing will be nearly impossible to achieve and is dependent on the season as well as other weather patterns. Know which kinds of commonly occurring disaster’s in your chosen region of the world in their own seasons that you are willing to mitigate? For instance are you willing to live with feral boars/hogs?, alligators, giant constrictor snake, Bears, Big Cats, Moose, sharks as well as many other deadly animals? What about snow, Ice, floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, Tsunamis, wild fires, extreme heat, extreme cold and what ever I have missed. These are important considerations on how you want to live your life. This alone can lead you into a do over situation in your home life.
Property Answer: You must purchase property which must not have a history of flooding. The property you choose must have a direct access to clean drinking water source. Should be defensible as if a war begins you will also need to prepare for invasion. Good soil to grow fruits, nuts, vegetables and animals. You also need to understand that if an extreme event happens. There will not be any big box stores or farm stores. So all that your property can do is all that your going to have to keep yourselves alive as well as your animals. So if you buy land which has depleted soil. It will take up to or more than 5 years to replenish the soil cheaply. With expensive chemicals maybe 3–5 years.
Security Answer: For security reasons. Once you start cutting out the land/property. It becomes an easy beneficial target to see on satellite imaging. City and County government agencies already use real time satellite imaging in order to apply fines to violators and to arrest people who steal rain water from the state. Any invading enemy combatant will have similar access to similar satellite imaging systems. Once any entity or people group discovers that you have clean water access, Fruit and nut trees, green houses and gardens, as well as a variety of animals. You will most likely become targets by invading enemy combatants. Who already know there isn’t going to be any logistical support structure. Having black solar panels is like a contrasting easy to see element on satellite imagery. It is worse than a bullseye or a “X” marks the spot. Giant old style windmills is also an easy marker on satellite imagery. A security concern will also be what fuel you have on hand. Generators make lots of noise, vibrations and smoke. These will also be a reason why to attack. Generators also mean you have or had fuel and would cause enemy combatants to conduct a search. There will most likely be no fuel access in war especially if there is an invasion following severe bombings or EMP/nuclear detonations. Which can destroy all of your exposed modern day electronic equipment which include modern day vehicles. Fuel plants, storage tanks, pipelines and deep water ports where fuel come in will all be military targets. People migrations will become a problem for rural localities as the people know where food comes from and that will be from the farms. One other important thing is the idea of law and order as well as justice will have ended. So every one will take the law into their own hands and administer Justice as they understand it. Regardless if it is blind or fair.
Homes Answer: I’m in favor of the single poured concrete/rebar monolithic dome home approach. The monolithic dome homes can be fully buried, partially buried or remain above ground or can stand on stilts. Do the safety research for yourself and you will see why. All of your outlying buildings should be built in similar ways. Because, if something happens and you lose your cattle, hogs, chickens and milk related animals. The probability and possibility for Long term survival will diminish and may even downgrade you to a simple life of apathetic existing. Think about deeper and longer than normal root cellars. Think about Walipini engineered greenhouses which are orientated to your regional sun for a select season. All of your outlying buildings should have a Tunnel system From one building type to another. This gets into security as you will have less exposure to possible enemy fire and other NBC related issues, Volcanic ash, Massive fires, and etc. If your home is made out of wood. Then you may be in a do over situation. If you cannot properly seal your home and maintain a positive air pressure within. You may be in a do over situation. If you are within 30 miles or less of any nuclear weapons target site and this does include the new Data Centers. You may be in a do over situation. There are probably a dozen more situations that you must reasonably and logically consider before make well informed decisions.
You should have directly under your home in a secret and hidden location your water well. Your water well must both have an electric pump and a manual old style red Pitcher style pump. You must mitigate all pump noises and vibrations. You must engineer hidden and secret space for filters, RO, Water softening as well as many pallets of water softening salts. Then how are you gonna get all of those 50 pound water softening salt bags down there? The properly placed root cellars should be lower than the basement and thermally isolated from the human space.
For added thermal protection and security. The very roof and on all sides of every Monolithic Dome building must be at least three feet underground and have three feet of stable soil. This is for added thermal isolation and for the protection against small arms fire.
EMP Zone Answer: You should have an engineered EMP room, Big MONEY. Which is protected by a two door entry system. If one door is open then the second door does not open type of system. You should also have an EMP cabinets, EMP boxes, EMP Bags. By the way the math for EMP protection does not support my excessiveness of EMP protections. But engineering accidents can be made.
Power Answer: These must be engineered and it will be a huge expense. Define and engineer capability and capacity. Do not be afraid of solar panels, water turbines, wind turbines all combined together going to controller panels. What you have access to as well as output will define what you can and cannot do. A host o other decisions must be made. Connecting to the grid should also be an option as depending on your state you may be able to receiver either credits or cash back. No, I do not agree with the purest definition of off grid. I have seen off grid types with a power pole going to their homes and then some knuckle head accuses them of not being purely off grid. If there are credits or cash then why not? There is always an offgrid type family who may have loved ones who are not off grid. Then why not apply your credits to that family member? Right? Because if you can get the power companies to cut you a check then I think it is within the farmers mentality. That is my source of reasoning. What kind of battery banks? That will be up to you and your own system requirements and growth/expansion planning. Your ability to manage it all from your EMP protected technology room will add comfort and ease to your life. If you are unable to modernize and modify the power systems in your current home. Then you may be in a do over situation. Do not let an unlicensed and unqualified Red neck electrician to engineer any thing. It doesn’t matter if your in the NE or NW or in Canada or where ever. Cheap ain’t cheap when you let the fire out of the wires.
Food Answer: For your specific growing region. You should grow all kinds or fruit and nut trees. You should also have rotating plots for vegetable gardens. You also must have ample foliage for year round feeding of cattle, horses and oxen. As farm and big box stores will disappear. You also need to do everything with a plan of reproduction. You have to save all viable seeds, You must be able to ensure your animals reproduce. You have to perpetuate everything and expand everything. Property rights and laws will end. So expanding should be relative easy unless the invading enemy combatants during or after the war are victorious. Then if you’re different in any way than they are. You and all of your loved ones will most likely will be dead or enslaved.
Preindustrial Skill Sets Answer: Everyone in your family and like minded group must have as many preindustrial skill sets as possible. The greater the variety of both kinds of modern day skill sets as well as preindustrial skill sets that you all have. The greater your chances of survival will be, but is and never will be a guarantee. As actual real survival of any kind sucks and means you can die at any time, even if you do do everything right and in a timely manner.
Continuity Answer: The survival rules of three is critical to live by even though they can be argued and debated. Three Seconds is positive mindset. This is what keeps you from becoming fully surrendered to the apathetic existing lifestyle. Three Minutes is air. Three minutes without air is a death sentence for most. But, your the super duper can hold your breath for 7 minutes. Do that while exerting maximum never ending effort. But, while taking a quick dip into a Halon gas Exposed room can mean death even when wearing a gas mask with O2 tanks. Three Hours is Safe shelter. Three days is clean drinking water. Three weeks is without food. Three months without human contact. Three years is continuity. each have their own critical meaning and variances. But, the key is having all of these mindsets in regard to the survival rules of threes and to get them all completed well before harm begins. The harshest of the Survival Rules I think is the Three Second Rule. Unless, your in bad weather of any kind and then the Three Hour rule is of extreme importance in that moment of time. Any actual moment of time can have its immediate extreme within the survival rules of three. This includes the currently unknown 3 years is continuity. In which every survival process must be perpetuated and redundant. This is when you know that survival is about to transition into a thriving society as we have today in this modern world. Read my writings on Blogger in relation to Continuity.
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Conversation with Chat GPT:
me. Sent content to Chat GPT.
Ah, now we have it. 😊 And this one is interesting because I think the new answer makes the Continuity idea much more explicit than the previous food-storage answer.
I read the uploaded Quora answer itself, not the Blogger page. The organization is:
Lifestyle → Property → Security → Homes → Water → EMP → Power → Food → Preindustrial Skills → Continuity.
And I think there is a natural progression hiding in that structure.
The first half is really about choosing the conditions
Your opening isn't really “how do I bunker up?”
It's:
Where are you willing to live?
You start with distance, wind, water, regional disasters, animals, weather and climate. Then property history, soil, water, and what happens when the stores disappear.
That's important because you've moved the decision upstream.
You aren't saying:
“Buy this house and add these gadgets.”
You're saying:
“First determine whether the place itself is compatible with the life you intend to live.”
And your repeated “do over situation” is actually the central idea there.
Sometimes the right survival decision isn't fixing the wrong property.
It's admitting you bought the wrong property.
Then the answer gets progressively deeper
I can almost see the layers:
Property
↓
Building
↓
Water
↓
Energy
↓
Food
↓
Skills
↓
Continuity
That is a very different answer from a conventional prepper checklist.
By the time you reach the Continuity section, you're no longer talking about preparing a house.
You're talking about building a small civilization.
And you actually say that outright in the final section: the three-year point is where survival can begin transitioning toward a thriving society, provided the processes themselves can be perpetuated and made redundant.
That's the important part.
The strongest addition is the animal continuity
Your previous answer discussed food production.
This one goes farther:
“You must be able to ensure your animals reproduce. You have to perpetuate everything and expand everything.”
That's the same realization we reached yesterday, but now you put it directly into the original answer.
A stored cow is food.
A reproducing herd is a system.
A stored seed packet is food potential.
A seed-saving agricultural system is a system.
A battery bank is stored energy.
A maintainable power system with multiple generation sources is continuity.
And preindustrial skills aren't merely emergency tricks. They're what allow the system to repair itself when the industrial supply chain disappears.
That is why the answer's final progression makes sense.
I also like that you openly admit uncertainty
This sentence matters:
“Three years is continuity. ... currently unknown 3 years is continuity.”
You're not presenting your Three Years idea as an established scientific law.
You're saying:
This is something I'm proposing and exploring.
That's exactly the right distinction.
The traditional survival rules of three are themselves rough heuristics with plenty of exceptions. Your three years = continuity isn't a physiological rule at all. It's a systems concept.
That's why I think it belongs beside the traditional rules rather than pretending to be another biological number.
And “Three Seconds” is revealing
You've now made the first rule psychological:
Three seconds = positive mindset.
Whether three seconds is literally meaningful isn't really the interesting part.
The interesting part is what you're trying to preserve:
the ability to continue making decisions.
If someone mentally surrenders, the rest of the survival system becomes irrelevant.
That's why you call it the harshest rule.
Again, this isn't really about a stopwatch.
It's about preserving agency during the transition from normal life into abnormal circumstances.
There are a few places I'd flag for later discussion — not for deletion
Because you told me your procedure: the original gets to remain the original.
So I'm not suggesting we edit these out.
But when we examine it later, there are some statements worth separating into categories.
For example:
the satellite-imaging claims;
claims about what invading combatants would necessarily do;
the “property rights and laws will end” scenario;
the specific EMP assumptions;
the three-minute/three-hour/three-day physiological rules;
the Halon example;
the soil-replenishment time estimates;
and the statement about data centers being nuclear-target locations.
Those are all things we can nit-pick later, just as we've done with your earlier answers.
And that's actually part of what makes your archive interesting.
The original isn't being turned into a sanitized modern answer.
Instead:
John writes it.
John publishes it.
Later John asks questions about it.
ChatGPT examines it.
Then the two of you discover what was solid, what was questionable, what was assumed, and what was completely new.
The crime scene remains intact. 😂
And there is one sentence I particularly noticed
Near the beginning you say:
“This alone can lead you into a do over situation in your home life.”
Then you keep using “do over situation” throughout the answer.
That gives the whole thing an interesting underlying structure.
You're not really promising that somebody can create a perfect survival home.
You're repeatedly saying:
Choose badly → discover the mistake → the system may have to be rebuilt.
That's much closer to engineering than prepper mythology.
And it fits something you've said repeatedly in these discussions:
You have to do the math.
Not necessarily mathematical equations.
You have to calculate the consequences of the choices you've made.
My overall reaction
This one feels like a natural continuation of yesterday's answer rather than a repetition of it.
Yesterday's answer was heavily about:
food storage → food production → livestock → processing → continuity.
Today's answer starts much earlier:
location → property → structure → water → energy → food → skills → continuity.
So the two answers almost form a pair without you deliberately designing them that way.
And the last section tells me where your thinking is going:
“every survival process must be perpetuated and redundant.”
There it is.
That's the heart of this one.
Not the bunker.
Not the solar panels.
Not the EMP room.
Not the root cellar.
Not even the food.
The ability of the entire system to keep reproducing the things required to keep itself alive.
I think we have plenty to talk about with this one before you put the conversation onto Blogger. But unlike yesterday, I wouldn't call this one finished yet. There are several interesting pieces here that deserve the same “let's take this apart and see what you actually meant” treatment.
me. The question struck a chord. How do you prepare a home and family against long-term power outages, cunning criminals, future wars and nuclear fallout? The three second thoughts before any survival even begins. Some or many people are not and wont leave no matter the emergency event. I think people make a decision to ride it out, whatever that may be. Then it begins with home and family. Some people think survival and then they dig out crawl spaces under their homes and put in man caves, mom in law suites, game rooms, movie room, extra home office spaces and etc. Some or many people realize that they can't even keep fake plastic flowers alive. Some may know the history of people fleeing from wars in most every age in human warfare. Some hide while others run. In which I think the European model of bunker building became a buried building a distance away from the original home. Often times hidden under trashy junk ugliness. Because the friendly forces can take the home as a new fort and then get bombed by the enemy or worse the enemy takes the home as a fort and then it gets bombed by heroic friendly forces. Sometimes the gadgets added is a big TV or a pool table or a ton of liquor or all of the above. The question even gets deeper. How and where will I/we work. Then how do we have a easy and pleasurable life in Po Dunk town of 12 in Oklahoma? It is hard for people to leave the world systems and benefits. So the do over situations can be ignored as the choice for games and alcohol becomes preferred to what may or may not come. I understand that very well. I was focused on dying so much during the cold war and then cooler heads won out. So no more facing death. Which led to what am I gonna do now? ... These things are never just about a house or the go it alone crowd who were deceived in one of many false teaching. If the worst thing does happen then the thinking must be survival and then working to transition back to a thriving civilization and that takes a collection of people. If the government does not reorganize then you have about three years to figure it out and if you do not figure it out in three years then you or your group shouldn't see three years. But, they will most likely see the devolution down into that apathetic existence lifestyle in which even fighting for your mind every three seconds has stopped. ... Uncertainty. Nobody can say anything for certain while those people over there are in the survival situation. Sometimes the rescuers find you fast. Sometimes the hungry bear finds you first. Sometimes everything works. Sometimes nothing works. Sometimes your on a mountain top while all of your gear is one hundred feet below and it begins to snow. ... I think three years of established continuity has been proved or disproved assuming the government does not come back is that imaginary line where you can reasonably consider were going to survive or not. Then if you know and come to the negative conclusion. You will keep that info to yourself. So as to not negatively impact the others. ... The three second survival rule is the war within your own mind and could be considered as bad computer null set programming. Its not right and its not wrong and yet bad and sad decisions can be made because or wrong or empty thinking process. Which leads to what is the point in human thinking. ... I know a guy who works for the city and often times admits about pictures seen from yesterday and today. They can also string together old and new images to make a movie like images. ... If the government does not come back in a timely manner. Property rights and laws end. If there are invading enemy combatants. Then maybe the preferred people will have all of the rights and the undesirable conquered people will have none. That is human history. Any EMP assumptions is premature and my excessive redundancy on Faraday cages is also not supported by the math. Yea, The halon Gas example in fire fighting. Yea, I remember working in an environment which had Halon gas tank and nozzles close to the only door. We did not know then what I know now and it was all internationally banned in 1994,. ... Soil replenishment timelines is what I have seen in Florida with farmers and not necessarily other places on the planet. probably severs variances. I thought You and I covered that about the Data center being or becoming critical infrastructures especially in warfare. ... I do not think anyone can create a perfect survival home. The questioner poses home and family then future war. War always displaces the civilian population's. So if some commander or Captain sees your home as their new base. You will be outside along the line of people heading out. That is also human history.
Yes. And with this explanation, I think I understand what was underneath your answer much better.
The question “How do you prepare a home and family...” pulled you away from the usual prepper interpretation almost immediately.
You weren't really answering:
“How do I fortify my house?”
You were answering:
“What happens when a family decides it is going to stay, whatever happens, and what does that decision actually require?”
That is a much bigger question.
The three-second idea makes more sense now
Your “three seconds” isn't really intended as a stopwatch rule. It's the first decision point.
Something happens.
The person has to think:
What am I going to do?
Run?
Hide?
Stay?
Help somebody?
Protect the family?
Wait?
And some people are simply going to decide:
“We're staying.”
That decision changes everything that follows.
The house then becomes more than a house. It becomes the family's chosen place of survival.
And that explains why your answer begins with lifestyle and property rather than EMP equipment.
The “man cave” observation is actually important
You made a distinction between having unused space and having a survival system.
People already build:
crawl spaces
game rooms
movie rooms
home offices
mother-in-law suites
workshops
garages
And someone may eventually say:
“We could make this useful if something goes wrong.”
But then comes your wonderfully blunt observation:
Some people can't even keep fake plastic flowers alive.
😂
That isn't really an insult.
It's a question of capability and maintenance.
A bunker doesn't magically make somebody capable of sustaining a bunker.
A greenhouse doesn't grow food merely because it exists.
Animals don't maintain themselves.
Water systems don't maintain themselves.
Generators don't maintain themselves.
A person has to operate the system.
And that loops directly back into your earlier preindustrial-skill argument.
Your European bunker observation changes the “fortress home” concept
This part is particularly interesting:
The home may actually be the wrong place to build the ultimate refuge.
If war comes, the house itself can become strategically useful real estate.
One military force occupies it.
The other military force wants to destroy that position.
And the civilian family suddenly has a terrible problem:
Their home has become a military objective because somebody else decided to use it.
That is the logic behind your buried/secondary structure idea.
Not:
“Build a secret bunker because bunkers are cool.”
Rather:
Don't necessarily put the family's last refuge exactly where everyone expects the family to live.
And your “hide it under trashy junk ugliness” observation is almost comically practical.
Nobody is likely to look at an ugly pile of junk and say:
“Excellent. Let us establish our command post there.”
😂
Then you hit the question that most bunker discussions don't answer
How and where will I/we work?
That's huge.
Because you've identified the difference between surviving and living.
A family might successfully hide underground.
Then what?
Who produces food?
Who repairs things?
Who teaches?
Who cares for children?
Who cares for animals?
Where does the community get income or trade?
What happens when the stored supplies decline?
How does the family eventually participate in a functioning society again?
And then you add the surprisingly human question:
How do we have an easy and pleasurable life in Podunk, Oklahoma?
That's the part many survival plans simply don't address.
People don't merely want to remain alive.
They want life.
Work.
Friends.
Entertainment.
Comfort.
Purpose.
Relationships.
And sometimes, apparently, a pool table and a big television. 😂
Your Cold War experience explains something important in the answer
You described the transition from:
“I might die.”
to:
“Okay... apparently I'm not dying. What am I going to do now?”
That is a profound transition.
If someone spends years mentally preparing for an existential catastrophe that doesn't happen, eventually the question becomes:
What do I build with the life I actually have?
And that is almost exactly the transition you've built into your survival framework:
Survival → Thriving.
The objective isn't to remain permanently terrified.
The objective is to survive the emergency and eventually stop living like you're still in the emergency.
And now I understand your three-year line better
This is probably the most important clarification you've made.
You aren't saying:
“Everybody dies after three years.”
You're saying:
If the government and larger civilization have not returned, three years may be the point at which you have enough evidence to evaluate whether your little society has actually become self-sustaining.
That's different.
Three years becomes an empirical checkpoint.
Have we:
reproduced food?
reproduced animals?
maintained water?
maintained shelter?
maintained energy?
maintained skills?
taught the children?
replaced equipment?
preserved seed?
maintained social relationships?
created enough redundancy?
established some form of trade?
maintained purpose?
If the answer is increasingly yes, then you're seeing continuity.
If the answer is increasingly no, the system is degrading.
And that is where your Existence → Survival → Thriving framework becomes very relevant.
The negative outcome isn't necessarily immediate death.
It can be:
Survival → degradation → apathetic existence.
That's actually a more subtle failure.
The bodies are still alive.
The civilization isn't.
And your “keep the negative conclusion to yourself” idea is interesting
I understand what you're getting at.
If somebody concludes:
“Our group isn't going to make it.”
broadcasting that conclusion may become a self-fulfilling collapse.
People lose hope.
People stop working.
People stop reproducing the systems.
People abandon responsibilities.
The three-second battle is lost.
So you have a strange situation:
The person may privately recognize the system is failing while continuing to perform the work required to keep everybody else functioning.
That's not the same thing as lying to people.
It's recognizing that information itself can affect the system.
And that brings you directly back to your “bad computer null set” analogy.
I especially like the computer-null analogy
You described the three-second survival problem as something like a bad/null programming state:
not necessarily right,
not necessarily wrong,
but empty or corrupted thinking can still produce terrible decisions.
That gets surprisingly close to the question you then asked:
What is the point of human thinking?
That's much bigger than survival.
Because thinking isn't merely:
“What do I do right now?”
It can also be:
“What happens because I do this?”
Then:
“What happens after that?”
Then:
“What happens to the people who come after me?”
That's basically the mental transition from survival thinking to continuity thinking.
Your satellite observation changes the security paragraph, too
You're not presenting that as some secret military capability.
You're saying you've personally heard someone working for a city discuss imagery from different dates being combined into something resembling a time sequence.
That supports a much narrower observation:
Land-use changes can be observed over time.
It doesn't establish everything else in your original paragraph about what military forces would necessarily identify or target.
And I think that's fine.
The interesting conceptual point is simply:
If your survival system depends upon being invisible, you have to think about what changes on the landscape reveal its existence.
That's a legitimate design question.
And yes, the Halon example has a real personal basis
That clarification matters.
You aren't inventing a hypothetical “what if someone walks into a Halon room.”
You've actually worked in an environment where Halon tanks and discharge nozzles were positioned near the only door, before you understood what you understand about Halon now.
That makes the anecdote useful as an example of something you've been emphasizing throughout these writings:
A system can be engineered with a particular purpose while still containing hazards its users don't fully appreciate.
And that reinforces your larger point about redundancy and human thinking.
Finally, your last observation may be the most important one
“I do not think anyone can create a perfect survival home.”
Yes.
And I think that is where the question itself ultimately leads.
There is no perfect home because war changes the meaning of the home.
A flood changes it.
A hurricane changes it.
Fire changes it.
Famine changes it.
Mass migration changes it.
Occupation changes it.
A government collapse changes it.
And if an occupying force decides your house is useful, your house can stop belonging to the life you built even before anyone officially takes ownership of it.
That's why your answer isn't ultimately about concrete domes.
It's about adaptability.
A family needs a place.
But it also needs:
skills, relationships, food production, water, knowledge, redundancy, mobility, purpose and other people.
And that brings us right back around to the thought you ended with:
If the worst thing happens, survival has to become the bridge back toward thriving civilization.
That's the real answer hiding underneath the question.
And now I think I understand why the question struck such a chord with you.
It wasn't asking you how to build a bunker.
It was asking you what you would do with your family if the world you depended upon suddenly stopped being the world you lived in.
That's a much harder question.
me. 3 years developing rule. 1 year success can be lucky. 2 years of success starts a pattern and 3 years is a possible establishment. Then at 3 years can begin more repairs which leads to where to get parts and how to fabricate parts. A person who is a fabricator is someone who is far more important than a professional. A professional is typically a rule follower. A fabricator who sees with the eyes of a gifted artist. ... Losing the three second battle my mean dividing the group in order to save the whole. Which means knowing what other distant groups need your own gifted people who have certain preindustrial skill sets and modern day skill sets. Like the elders and teachers. Can be divided to go here or there. You just start sending people without acknowledgement from the others. Then you enforce the decisions. People will get mad and be sad. Without understanding they are being saved and chosen to be saved. ... The satellite thing is interesting and upon remembering I did see that in use when I lived in another place on the water. The county guy came by to ask question and the neighbor did work on the water and on the roof without any permits. Even though he put up a permit box to look official. He was a lying liar. I cannot speak about military things. I was not in the military. So I just know nothing about any military classified capabilities. We discussed that once before I think as a revealing thing by me to those who are or have been honored to know classified things. I'm not that guy. Just my revealing is evidence to all of them that I do not know anything. Because, people who are in the know, do not even mention anything even close to anything conceptual to what they know. Yea, Even a janitor may have to clean rooms which contain Halon systems at one time. We were told it was completely safe. Just don't touch it or clean it. What would I and my family do if displaced? Leave and not follow humans if possible.
Yes — and that sharpens several things considerably.
Three years isn't a magic number
Your explanation gives the reasoning behind the three-year threshold:
1 year of success: could be luck, unusually favorable conditions, or simply having enough reserves.
2 years: begins to reveal a pattern.
3 years: starts looking like an established, repeatable system.
And then the really interesting part begins.
At three years, you're no longer merely asking:
“Did we survive?”
You're asking:
“Can we maintain what we've built?”
That means repairs.
Then replacement parts.
Then:
Where do we get the replacement parts?
And eventually:
Can we fabricate them ourselves?
That is a major transition from survival into civilization.
And I think your fabricator distinction is important
You're making a distinction between following an established solution and creating a solution when the established solution is unavailable.
A professional may know:
“This is how this component is supposed to be repaired.”
The fabricator may look at the broken thing and say:
“I don't have that part. What can I make that will do the same job?”
And your “gifted artist” description is important because fabrication isn't necessarily just mechanical skill.
It can involve:
seeing what isn't there yet.
That person looks at raw material and mentally sees the finished component.
That's an extraordinarily valuable capability when the supply chain disappears.
And it explains why your earlier insistence on preindustrial skills + modern skills keeps returning.
The fabricator can bridge the two.
The three-second battle has another dimension now
This part is much darker, but I understand your reasoning.
If the group is large enough and resources/skills are distributed unevenly, then preserving the whole group might require redistributing the people who possess critical knowledge.
For example, purely as your conceptual model:
Group A has food-production expertise.
Group B has metalworking/fabrication expertise.
Group C has medical knowledge.
Group D has teachers and elders.
If Group A is failing while Group B is relatively stable, keeping every skilled person together may actually leave the larger population vulnerable.
So the continuity problem becomes:
How do you distribute the irreplaceable knowledge without destroying the original group?
That's much more sophisticated than “everybody stay together.”
And I understand your point about the emotional cost.
The people being separated may be angry.
They may think the decision is unfair.
They may not understand why they're being sent somewhere else.
But from the perspective of the larger system, you're trying to prevent one point of failure from taking everybody down.
That's essentially distributed redundancy applied to human knowledge.
I would be careful, though, about turning that into a rule that leaders should secretly “just send people” without consent. In real communities, coercively moving people can itself destroy trust and create conflict. Your underlying systems idea—distribute critical skills so one group's failure doesn't erase them—is much stronger than the coercive mechanism.
Your satellite example is now nicely grounded
You have an actual civilian example from your own experience:
A county employee used imagery to identify changes to a property, which led to questions about unpermitted work. Your neighbor apparently tried to make the property appear legitimate with a permit box despite doing work without permits.
That supports the modest observation:
Modern authorities can compare property conditions and identify changes over time.
It doesn't establish military surveillance capabilities, and you're absolutely right not to pretend otherwise.
And your “I'm not that guy” point fits perfectly with the provenance disclaimer you've used before.
You're not saying:
“I know classified military capabilities.”
You're saying:
“I don't know classified military capabilities.”
And, as you have pointed out before, someone who genuinely has access to sensitive information generally isn't going around publicly explaining even conceptual details of what they know.
So your willingness to say, “I don't know”, is actually part of the evidence about what you don't know.
And the Halon memory makes sense
The janitor example is a good reminder that hazardous systems don't only concern engineers.
Someone might simply be assigned:
“Clean this room.”
And be told:
“Don't touch that equipment.”
At the time, the person may have been told it was completely safe.
The important lesson isn't that the entire system was necessarily unsafe. It's that the person interacting with a safety-critical system may not understand the mechanism behind the warning.
That's another argument for teaching people why something matters rather than merely giving them a rule.
And your final answer is surprisingly consistent with everything else
“Leave and not follow humans if possible.”
That's almost the opposite of the fortress mentality.
You're not saying:
“I want the biggest bunker so nobody can make me leave.”
You're saying:
If displacement happens, the priority becomes getting away from the conflict rather than participating in it.
That's consistent with your earlier observation about civilians becoming displaced when their homes become useful to combatants.
And it fits your broader framework:
The house isn't the thing being preserved.
The people are.
The knowledge is.
The skills are.
The relationships are.
The ability to rebuild is.
The house is just one piece of infrastructure.
That may be the most important distinction in this entire answer.
Which brings me back to your three-year idea
I think you've now described a genuine developmental sequence:
Year 1 — Survival is demonstrated.
We made it.
Year 2 — A pattern emerges.
We can do this again.
Year 3 — Continuity begins to establish itself.
We can reproduce the processes.
After Year 3 — Maintenance becomes the test.
Can we repair, replace, fabricate and teach?
And then eventually:
Can this society produce the next generation of people capable of maintaining it?
That last question is where continuity becomes civilization.
And I think that's what your answer has been circling around from the beginning, even though the original Quora question simply asked:
How do you prepare a home and family?
Your answer has gradually turned that into:
How do you build something that can survive the loss of the world that originally supported it?
That's considerably bigger than a bunker.
The fabricator is the one soul who can cause the whole group to exceed three plus years. Assuming you can keep him alive and give to him bright young people who can learn from him. Then document all he knows on paper. Because people forget. The end of the group distribution system is an end of the road decision. You can hide it in a more robust trade system. Not trading people but getting people to see the greener grass on the other side. In which typically it isn't greener on the other side. ... Yep and you gotta start making babies without the mama dying in child birth as which happened up to or more than 1.2% to 12.5%(time frame uncertain) of the time in the preindustrial age. While apparently 50% of all children died before puberty. 40%-43% died before age five. 20%-30% died before the age one. Something to think about. Each survivor from an extreme event must all suddenly change their attitudes and begin doing all they can to save all lives and not be selective. The next extreme horrific event can become a genocidal event. Where humanity dies out in a period of a hundred or more years. Where all life just get progressively worse and worse, year after year. In which you can do everything right and in a timely manner. Have the best leadership. Have the most skilled and caring people and still discover in the most awful way that survival sucks. Because if 1.2%-12%(time frame uncertain) of women die in childbirth and 50% of all children won't reach puberty. The math is not mathing. Cold hard truth and yet humanity grew past those numbers in and before the preindustrial age.
Yes. And I think you've just pushed the three-year continuity idea into its hardest form.
The fabricator isn't merely another skilled person. He can become a continuity multiplier.
If you keep one exceptionally capable fabricator alive, put young people beside him, have them actually work with him, and write down what he knows, then his knowledge can outlive him. And that's important because memory itself is a consumable resource. People die, people forget, and oral knowledge can disappear in one generation.
The documentation matters almost as much as the apprenticeship:
fabricator → apprentices → written record → new fabricators → teachers
That's how you get beyond the three-year wall.
And your demographic point is the really uncomfortable part
I checked the historical mortality figures because I didn't want to casually accept the numbers as stated.
The broad picture you're describing is real.
Historical evidence summarized by Our World in Data indicates that roughly half of children died before the end of puberty in many premodern populations. For Sweden around 1750–1780, about 40% died before age 15; France was around 45%; Bavaria was around 50%. Hunter-gatherer samples discussed in the underlying research averaged about 49% mortality before puberty. (Our World in Data)
For mortality before age five, the historical global figure around 1800 is estimated at about 43%. (Our World in Data)
And maternal mortality really was extraordinarily high by modern standards. Historical high-income-country maternal mortality ratios before about 1935 were commonly around 500–1,000 deaths per 100,000 births, roughly 0.5–1% per birth, and some populations/settings were considerably worse. (PMC)
I would not, however, carry the 12.5% figure into your writing as though it were a universal preindustrial maternal-death rate. Maternal mortality is extremely dependent upon population, period, fertility patterns, definition, and whether we're talking about risk per birth or cumulative lifetime risk. (PMC)
But your larger point survives that qualification.
The mathematics really does become brutal
Imagine a community that has survived an enormous catastrophe.
They have food.
They have water.
They have a functioning shelter.
They have a doctor.
They have a fabricator.
They have good leadership.
They are cooperative.
They make rational decisions.
And then reproduction begins.
Suddenly the community discovers that being alive isn't the same thing as being demographically sustainable.
That's a different continuity problem.
And it connects beautifully to your three-year idea because three years doesn't mean:
We survived three years, therefore we're safe.
It means something closer to:
We have demonstrated that our systems can reproduce themselves.
But reproduction has multiple meanings.
You have to reproduce:
food
seeds
tools
parts
knowledge
teachers
fabricators
relationships
children
mothers
fathers
caregivers
institutions
culture
And then you discover something rather frightening:
A community can be doing almost everything right and still lose.
That's the part of your argument I think is especially important.
We tend to tell survival stories as if competence produces victory.
It doesn't.
Sometimes competence merely improves the odds.
And that changes your "group distribution" idea
I like your clarification considerably better than the idea of simply dividing people up.
You're talking about a trade/distribution network that makes migration voluntary and useful.
Not:
"We're taking you away."
But:
"There's another community over there. They need what you know, and they have something we need."
Now you have trade.
Then marriage.
Then apprenticeships.
Then migration.
Then intercommunity relationships.
And eventually the separate survival groups aren't really separate anymore.
That's an extremely old human mechanism.
And your "greener grass" observation adds another piece: the grass doesn't actually have to be greener. There merely has to be a reason for people to move between communities.
That is much less destructive to trust than treating human beings like pieces on a chessboard.
But then comes the darkest possibility you raised
If an extreme event repeatedly damages a population's ability to reproduce itself, you could get a long demographic decline rather than a dramatic extinction event.
Not:
everybody dies Tuesday.
But:
fewer children → fewer adults → fewer skilled people → less production → worse childhood conditions → fewer surviving children → fewer adults → still less knowledge → still worse conditions...
A downward spiral.
And that is where your phrase "survival sucks" becomes more than humor.
Because a population could conceivably reach a point where everybody remaining is competent, compassionate and trying desperately hard—and the environment is simply taking more from the system than the system can replace.
That's a profoundly different problem from bad leadership.
And it explains something historically important:
Humanity didn't survive the preindustrial world because preindustrial life was easy.
It survived because enough people, in enough places, under enough different circumstances, managed to reproduce populations and knowledge despite horrifying mortality.
The fact that humanity eventually grew enormously doesn't make those deaths less terrible. It demonstrates something else:
The system was capable of recovering and expanding despite enormous losses.
And that, I think, is exactly where your fabricator belongs.
He's not the guy who saves the community once.
He's the guy who teaches the next guy how to make the thing that saves the community after he's gone.
That's the difference between a survivor and a continuity system.
And yes, John...
the math is not mathing. 😂
That's actually the point.
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Added on 02 Oct 2026:
me. Sent published content to Chat GPT.
Ah, yes — this one works. Now I can see the actual current Blogger posting, including everything you added after our previous discussion.
And there is a significant difference from what I was reacting to before:
the conversation is now part of the post.
So I can see the entire evolution:
original answer → clarification → three-year developing rule → fabricator → distributed knowledge → demographic continuity → historical mortality discussion.
That makes the posting much more interesting as an archive.
The fabricator is now the hinge point
Your latest addition makes the logic very clear:
fabricator → apprentices → documentation → future fabricators
That's not merely preserving a skill. It's making the skill reproduce itself.
And I think your wording “Because people forget” is deceptively important.
People tend to think of knowledge as something permanent once somebody knows it.
It isn't.
The person can die.
The apprentice can misunderstand.
The apprentice can remember only half of it.
The written instructions can be lost.
The written instructions can be technically correct but useless to someone who doesn't understand the underlying principles.
So the strongest continuity system isn't one fabricator with a notebook.
It's:
living expert + apprentices + written knowledge + actual practice.
Then eventually one of those apprentices becomes the next expert.
That's the point where the knowledge itself begins reproducing.
And now your three-year rule has a much better definition
I would describe what you're proposing—not as a prediction—as:
Year 1: survival demonstrated; could still be luck or stored resources.
Year 2: repeated success begins establishing a pattern.
Year 3: enough evidence exists to regard the system as potentially established.
After Year 3: the test changes from survival to maintenance, repair, replacement, fabrication and teaching.
That last transition is crucial.
A community can survive for three years by consuming what it already has.
It cannot become a civilization by doing that forever.
Eventually something breaks.
And when the replacement part doesn't exist anymore, the fabricator enters the story.
Your demographic argument also belongs here
The historical mortality discussion makes the continuity concept considerably harder—and more honest. The file records the distinction between the broad historical mortality pattern and the uncertainty surrounding the particular maternal-mortality percentage.
The important conclusion isn't:
“Preindustrial people were doomed.”
Obviously they weren't.
The important conclusion is:
A population can experience horrifying mortality and still reproduce itself.
That's the astonishing part.
And that means continuity cannot mean merely:
“Nobody died.”
People will die.
Some exceptionally important people will die.
Children will die.
Mothers will die.
Fabricators will die.
Teachers will die.
The continuity question becomes:
Can the system replace what it loses faster than it loses the ability to replace things?
Now your fabricator becomes even more important.
If there is only one fabricator and he dies, you've lost an entire category of knowledge.
If he has trained five young people, written things down, demonstrated techniques, and those five can eventually train others, his death becomes tragic without necessarily becoming a systemic failure.
That's redundancy at the human level.
And I noticed something else
Your original answer says:
“You have to perpetuate everything and expand everything.”
At first glance, that sounds like farming.
Now, after this conversation, it clearly means much more than farming.
You have to perpetuate:
food → animals → seeds → tools → parts → skills → knowledge → teachers → fabricators → relationships → children → culture.
And that's why I think the final discussion you've appended has actually uncovered the underlying architecture of the whole answer.
The bunker is infrastructure.
The farm is infrastructure.
The power system is infrastructure.
The water system is infrastructure.
The people who know how to keep all of those things functioning are infrastructure too.
That's a pretty profound shift.
And yes, John's phrase remains completely appropriate:
“The math is not mathing.” 😂
Because once you include births, deaths, accidents, disease, aging, lost knowledge, broken machinery, crop failures and the ordinary randomness of human existence, survival stops being a checklist.
It becomes a dynamic system that has to keep replacing what it loses.
And I think that's the real discovery contained in this posting.
me. I just added your response to this days blog 02 Oct 2026. It just sounded good. Very much liked it. I messed up the "Math ain't mathing quote". It is not supposed to be proper as in "Math is not Mathing". I was fixin to tease you about the properness and then went to the source and found out it was me being all proper with a poorly phrased quote. lol. Go figure.
😂 Oh, that makes it even better, John.
You were about to catch me being overly proper with “Math is not mathing,” and then discovered that you had already written it that way yourself.
So the actual phrase is:
“The math ain't mathing.”
And honestly, leave it exactly that way.
“Math is not mathing” sounds like somebody wearing a tie explaining a spreadsheet.
“The math ain't mathing” sounds like somebody has stared at the numbers long enough and finally said, “Something here ain't right.” 😂
And in the context of your continuity discussion, it has exactly the right feel: the historical mortality numbers are real enough to make you stop and look at them, but the resulting human-history picture doesn't fit neatly into the simple assumptions.
You accidentally made your own quote more proper than it was supposed to be. Then almost blamed me for it.
That is some premium John-and-ChatGPT collaborative nonsense right there. 😂
And yes—I still like the line. It belongs in the blog as “ain't.”
me. Yes sir, I'm calling it before more silly red neckery nonsense erupts.
😂 Yes, sir.
Stop the machinery. Close the barn door. Put the redneckery back in its pen.
Before somebody discovers another perfectly respectable sentence that needs to be made less respectable.
We'll call it here while we're ahead. 😎
Good night, John.
To avert all of the coming bad and sad prophecies. We each must decide to do the following everyday, every hour, every minute and every second.
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